Iraq, Iran, New York and Colorado
I recently had a long discussion with a friend of mine who is from Iran. She grew up there and lived through the nightmare of being bombed by Iraq during the war in the 1980’s. She has an amazing insight into the current state of affairs in the Middle East, including the United States invasion into Iraq. However, she and I disagreed quite strongly on this subject.
She currently lives in Colorado and performs a variety of tasks for civic organizations. I received this e-mail from her a week or so ago:
Dear Friends,
I am asking you to PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, do everything in your power to get people to VOTE. If this country ends up being run by more CRIMINALS, it is a DAMN SHAME that we didn’t do everything in our power to stop that from happening. So PLEASE practice the very right that many people gave their lives for, so that we may VOTE today!
I am a full time staff at PeaceJam and a student but I am also sitting outside of K-Mart or going door to door to get people registered after work. You would be surprised to see how many people, how many AMERICANS are not even registered to VOTE! I am not trying to suggest a party. I am just asking YOU to help this country go back to what it once was, a country of active citizens!
If you live in Colorado please contact me and i will tell you how we can get more people registered in the next six weeks before the elections.
Many thanks,
Pani
The word that caught me here was “criminal” which is why I highlighted it. The following is the e-mail conversation which ensued.
Joe
criminals?
Pani
Is taking hundreds of thousands of lives not criminal?
Joe
I’m no longer a Republican, but I don’t think we want to have this discussion. Especially considering who the US got rid of.
Pani
Shouldn’t you be saying I instead of We? Because i wouldn’t mind a discussion. Even then you can’t say that you don’t want to have this discussion but drop in a comment like that! lol which only calls for a discussion.
Joe
Well, our politics are quite different, but to call my president a criminal is frustrating Pani.
Pani
And to kill/displace thousands of innocent people is beyond frustrating my friend. It is simply a war crime, and very devastating!
Joe
One of the nations we attacked attacked us, the other ignored the UN resolutions, fought with20its neighbors (including your country) and was dangerous to world peace. The20U.S.’s biggest fault is also its biggest asset, it’s the only nation on earth willing to confront dictators. And while I think this thing should have been pursued along a different route, how many crying people in dungeons did Saddam put to death? How many more innocent Iraqi’s were going to due under him? Who would have brought him to justice Pani? Iran? The current leader of Iran is a psychopath and a region full of instability, which puts lawyers in jail, women to death and Christians in prison can’t start to shout “war crimes” because there is so much blood on its own hands.
Pani
It is impossible to think that Saddam was a danger to world peace and the U.S. is not right now! The U.S. ignores UN resolutions, International Courts, NPT…and many others. The issue is that the U.S. can’t stand it when someone else does any of those things and finds it it’s business to step foot where ever it wishes at whatever cost!
Yes, Saddam attacked my country but i along with the rest of the nation were taught to LOVE Iraqis, even when they were dropping bombs on our head! Because i had incredible parents who put HUMANITY first and foremost in everything! And today, Iranians have the decency to still not just like, but LOVE Americans! When they see an American on the street in Iran they bring them home and cook them meals and show them the Persian culture and are most hospitable. They still have the decency to separate the people and the government of America unlike the average American here who thinks that all Muslims, all Middle Easterns are evil because their president told them so!
As for the Iranian president, he is just a mirror image of Mr. Bush. A hard line religious politician, with the difference being that Iranian people do not believe everything he says and think for themselves instead. They at least know the map of the world, and can decide for themselves what is going on with world politics, not what they ar e being told by FOX! They live in a country who’s government burns America n flags and has “Death To America” slogans all over but you wouldn’t even know that when you meet a Persian in Iran because of how hospitable they are to an American!
As fo r Saddam, why is it that when the U.S. no longer wanted him, he needed to be brought to justice? Why didn’t the U.S. have a problem funding him with the very unjust war you mentioned against my country. Was it not the very Donald Rumsfeld who thought Saddam needs to be brought to Justice under the Bush administration, who visited Saddam many times during the Senior Bush Administration to provide him with weapons and funds for the war against Iran, knowing Saddam was using mustard gas against Iranians! Who provided Saddam with intelligence and satellite systems that could show him where our houses and schools were? I spend the first eight years of my life in black outs because with the wonderful technology America had provided Saddam, he was successfully bombing all our schools and hospitals! Why did the U.S. not have a problem with him being unjust then? But all of a sudden he had to be brought to justice years later when he was of no good use to the U.S. anymore!
I spent the first eight years of my life in the most horrible state a child can have under war, but never came out of it hating Iraq, or America! My parents never allowed me to think that just because someone was awful to me i had the right to be awful to them! I don’t know about your religious beliefs right now, but we didn’t have to be Christians to be that way! We just were human, and if you are human you will know that there is NO EXCUSE for taking a life, NO MATTER WHAT.
Sometimes20i think anti-abortion people are so amusing to watch and listen to. They fight for the life of an unborn fetus so that they can put it under death penalty or drop a bomb on its head years later! Such a=2 0paradox.
And by the way Joe, discussion is the only way to take down the ideology walls that are causing for people to fight, and shed blood for centuries now. So please know that i am always open and would like to have discussions because i think it’s important for you to hear my views and experiences just as it is for me to hear yours!
Joe
First off, way too many exclamation points, but that’s a grammar issue, not really on our topic.
Secondly, let me say that I am no fan of Rumsfeld or Cheney, and my distaste for George W. Bush has grown. That being said, you paint a picture of Americans being sheep, and yet the compassionate people of Iran have allowed three decades of religious dictators to run their nation. I am overwhelmed with how little you think of the people who welcomed you with open arms when your own country forced you to leave. I don’t defend Fox News or the average voter, but you are painting a very black and white picture of Iran being a place of loving people, and history just isn’t on your side on that one. I am in no way saying20your family is evil, or that most Iranians are evil, rather that the idea of every Iranian spends their day waiting for me with a bowl of soup to taste isn’t Kosher.
I am well aware that for about fifty years the CIA has run some pretty despicable programs in my country and many other countries. It’s shameful that my government has supported dictators that it then had to remove. What people usually forget however was the alternative America was given at the time. For example, Hugo Chavez in Venezuela is trying to become an elected king. He’s ruining his own nation (as I’ve heard from Venezuelans, not Americans) and is ready to provoke a war in his country, his continent and his hemisphere that will lead to disaster. Were this the 1950’s, America probably would have backed some other leader who was slightly less ominous. In Iraq/Iran, the choice between Saddam and the Iatola (sic?) wasn’t a great choice at all, and considering the U.S. interests in the region, a choice had to be made.
One may argue “what right does the U.S. have to back any leader, or overthrow any leader, in a given country.” I understand that argument, but some of those same people bitch when the U.S. doesn’t get involved in Rwanda, Sudan, Myanmar and other nations where atrocities are being carried out. I have rejected the neo-conservative notion that America can cure the world of evil, but when atomic weapons and weapon capabilities are being sold to Iran , Syria and other unstable/aggressive governments, what is the United States supposed to do? Bill Clinton could have ended Osama’s life and saved thousands of Americans, yet had he killed him, the rest of the world might have said “Clinton killed a freedom fighter.” This is the world we live in, America just can’t win.
As far as the U.N., the United States is the only nation on earth with enough guts and moral authority to get in another nation’s way when it oversteps its bounds. Question may be “who are we to be that force on earth?” Well, if it has to be someone, pick a better nation? Canada? China? France? Iran? Russia? And if you argue that no nation should have that power, you’re accepting that Sudans and Rwandas and Iraqs and other nations with murderous dictators should be allowed to murder their own people without provocation.
I don’t pretend to have all the answers, I don’t pretend that Americans are right and everyone else is wrong and I don’t pretend that what is going on in Iraq is 100% right. I will say this, those who think Iraq was 100% the right move are just not paying attention, and those who think Iraq was 100% the wrong move are naive.
Pani
Yes, way too many grammar and spelling mistakes but that is not what matters in this case at least. lol Since there are other important issues at hand.
This is why discussion is great because now i see we have more in common than differences. I have a great quote here on my desk from Marjaneh Satrapi “The world is not divided into countries. The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don’t know each other, but we talk together and we understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. An the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.” Then i added my own to it saying “Those committing crimes in my government wear turbans and those committing crimes in your government wear ties, and on the inside they both lack human empathy”.
I said average American. Joe, people in LA welcomed me with open arms. Have you tried being a Middle Eastern woman in any other state other than CA and NY? Things are a bit different my friend. I mean even poor Corrine at one point said “I would much rather we visit you, i just worry if you came to visit us here, people would stare at you or treat you poorly”. And yes, i appreciate the amazing Americans who take the time to educate themselves and find out things for themselves by making friends with people like me and asking us what Islam is, or what the people in the middle east are really like. I respect and admire these Americans. For instance Zoriah’s family or my mother’s husband…
I also don’t think that one nation should have the authority that you speak of. It needs to be a committee of many nations representing the combination of the people in this world, working toward a common goal that is the well being of every human being on this earth. It is only through this that each individual and nation can be responsible for their fair share of hard work without one super power taking all the glory or blames for most things that take place in the world.
I guess you would only ha ve to go to Iran and experience it for yourself. But they not only have a bowl of soup ready for you but don’t eat their own food and put it in front of you. Even the poorest families do this. It is a cultural thing, a guest is highly respected in that culture because it is even said in Islam that God rewards those who welcome guests in to their homes with open arms. So they don’t just have that toward Americans they are generally a hospitable nation. It was the first nation that gave rights to the Jews and is still one of the biggest melting pots of different ethnicities, religions and cultures. Bahais, Zorastrians, Jews, Muslims, Christians… have all been living there for centuries. There is no clash between the people; we have all lived in friendship with each other for hundreds of years. This is only a clash created by governments and war profiteers!
Anyway, i enjoyed our talk. I remember you said you were working on a book. What’s it about? How is it coming along?
What do you guys think?
Our government is criminal and I can outline that for you if you wish? George W. Bush should be prosecuted for murder and the proof has been well documented “The prosecution of George W. Bush For Murder” by Vincent Bubliosi… G.W.B. isn’t really the problem its the criminal elite pulling the strings of our government and G.W.B. isn’t educated enough to understand what he is doing…
The end does not justify the means. The founding fathers would be against our interventionist policy of policing the world. George Washington’s essay on isolationism is still read aloud in congress every year. “Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like a fire, it is dangerous like a servant to the a fearful master.” – George Washington… You can’t morally tell me you are not okay with Sadaam but you are okay with the 500,000 innocent dead iraqi at the hand of the United States government. Democracy is a bad word in Iraq. Democracy is a bad word in my house. It is the worst form of government anyway. We invaded a country without a declaration of war in the name of….???? What gives us the authority to do this? The constitution doesn’t and you think it’s okay and your friend should be thankful? You think someone has to step in and stop dictators? Seriously by what authority, because we are more moral??? You have to have rules and just like Christians go to the scripture for the law of God our government has to goto the constitution. What happens if Christians just start redefining Gods law into their own image? The founders preached trade with all nations alliance with none. They had 2000+ years of wisdom and urged isolationism for a reason… We were not invaded by Iraq. Sadaam was not an emanate threat (16 intelligence agencies agree) but the information was manipulated (the white out papers) so they could get their war. History will paint a very dark picture of this administration and prove our founding fathers correct…
Interventionism stands in direct opposition to the foundation of this constitutional republic. The U.S.A. likes to control foreign governments so they overthrow leaders and install a U.S. approved government. That is the only reason for going to Iraq. They saw an opportunity to manipulate intelligence and play off the fear of 9/11, CRIMINAL according to the constitution that we have apparently thrown out the window and made up or own rules… You brought up that people complain that we don’t intervene sometimes. The reason we don’t is because we don’t think Africa is a security threat (hard to be a threat when you have no food). That is why we stand by while Sudan, Uganda, Rwanda, pick a place in Africa and we don’t intervene militarily… Our government doesn’t actually care and I think that proves it… Just like our open borders prove the “war on terror” is superficial…
We no longer operate under the laws of the constitution even though they swear to uphold it. “In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution.” Thomas J. The government ignores the laws that govern it and our founding fathers would not recognize the government they created.
I’m glad you guys worked it out but if this were a debate and we were keeping points I’m afraid she won… 5 to 3
the idea in her quote was good: The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. Those committing crimes in my government wear turbans and those committing crimes in your government wear ties, and on the inside they both lack human empathy”.
FYI Going into iraq was 100% wrong.
Your comments are interesting, however, I see some flaws in your response.
A. We weren’t debating to see who won. This flaw is unfortunate, because it means you’re looking at this from a win/lose perspective and not a “search for truth” perspective.
B. Stating that you read a book that claims Bush is/was a criminal really isn’t doing much for me. Where are the facts? Plus, define criminal.
C. Your comment that democracy “is the worst form of government anyway” is outrageously ignorant. What would you put in its place? Also, for the record, the United States is not a democracy, it is a democratic republic. What would you suggest is the best form of government?
D. That Saddam was no threat is one point, that he murdered Iranians, Iraqi’s, Kuwaiti’s and others is fact and important. True, the United States backed him against Iran, but it also sold arms to Iran in the 80’s to fight back (Iran Contra). This is too complex for your statements.
E. All other points aside, I love much of what the founding fathers had to say, but they were creating/governing a nation a million light years away from the USA in 2008, in a world a million light years away from our current global situation. I believe they gave us guiding principles, but they couldn’t have imagined 9/11, couldn’t have imagined almost three decades of homocide attacks by rogue arab/middle eastern entities and couldn’t have imagined fifteen or so despots in the Middle East using their oil reserves as a means to be fat, lying dictators.
I appreciate your comments, please keep them coming, but use facts and not book references to make your point. Also, I’m hoping my search is for truth, not to be right or to win a debate.
WOW! really? Me saying she won was more like me saying I agree with more of her ideas than yours. It hardly has to do with unfortunate flaws turning your personal search for the truth into a game…
“Our government is criminal and I can outline that for you if you wish? ” That was my first sentence. Citing a book as a reference is very common. The facts are in the book that support my argument. I asked if you would like me to lay them out for you… I gave you a brief overview
B. Do you want me to layout the case for the entire prosecution on your blog? cause I will. Bush committed crimes based on lying, propaganda, and manipulation to get us into an undeclared war which is unconstitutional and is an offense that could legally land him in court… Vincent B. is a highly highly, respect lawyer and I suggest reading his book if interested in why your friend Palin sees what I see… I was trying to avoid writing an essay. Crim’i'nal a person that breaks the law. He broke the law according to the constitution that is the law of government. Altering information to mislead the American people into supporting a war is a crime. That is just the tip of the iceberg and Vincent testified infront of congress with his evidence… It is outrageous the things Bush did to get us into this war.
C. Please don’t tell me what kind of government we are… I’m the one who said we are a constitutional republic and our rights come from God… This country thinks democracy is so great when 51% of the people control 49%. I’m sick of people thinking what we are “spreading” all over the world is so wonderful. I suggest we follow the constitution that does not allow for that behavior causing many of or economic problems (nation buliding). Economics are what brought down the Roman Empire and ended the cold war, very important…
Then you attack me personally saying my comment is ignorant. You are the one ignoring the truth. If you are searching for the truth in America you need to know what it looks like and the truth for government is measured and judged by the constitution… Just like a christian uses the scripture for truth. Is it okay to steal? Do I decide for myself and start a religion based on my ideas or do I ask the scripture? Is it okay to invade a country and displace thousands and kill innocent children illegally in the name of democracy? Do I make up my own rules like this administration or do I ask the constitution since it is the law of government… If you don’t like the constitution that gives you your freedom than I suggest China…
Talk about ignorant… “I believe they gave us guiding principles” Do you know what they gave us? A statement like that only proves you have never read the constitution or american history… They were far from “guiding principle” and you would get laughed out of the room by anyone who understands our constitutional republic… You are almost suggesting we get rid of it by saying they are guiding principles LOL! FYI if we would have stuck to the constitution through our generation we would be more prosperous and not fighting needless wars…
E. Wow! The founders couldn’t imagine our world that is so different? Really? Sorry but we are not that different, despite what msm tells you. They didn’t have any problems similar to ours? There we no wars? There was no oppression before their time? I can read the old testament and all I read is corruption just like 2008… That is an ignorant statement to say they couldn’t imagine problems like ours. So you are saying ours are so unique and special we should abandon our roots. What you are suggesting is the opposite of patriotism and goes against the constitution. I wouldn’t celebrate the 4th of July if I was you. Alexander the great wasn’t trying to conquer or destroy other countries? All the kings in your history books were great men too? So when the founders said never allow a central bank or you will lose your country by the devaluing of the currency they didn’t know what they were talking about? We have a central bank called the federal reserve something they warned against. In 1913 we allow one and in 2008 our dollar is worth 4 cents and we have a meltdown like the Roman Empire??? You are right we are different in 2008 and that’s the problem. We need to get back to our constitutional republic and stop policing the world cause we are bankrupt…
Thomas Jefferson said, “If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their currencies, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their prosperity until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.” Wow… He must have just gotten lucky on that one…
9/11 doesn’t scare me. Government scares me and that’s what our founders foresaw. Governments have been the poison throughout history. Governments erode liberty and cause wars. Governments allow central banks and the transfer of wealth that erodes the middle class. Governments stage events like the gulf of tonkin. Governments tax it’s people to death. Governments commit all the atrocities referenced in the declaration of independence. All the constitution does is hold the government in check cause the founders knew power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. If you don’t understand that then you won’t understand anything I’m saying about following the constitution.
I hardly appreciate your assumptions in your little world of you searching for the truth but really thinking you know so much more than everyone… It’s very clear in the way you wrote to Pani. You clearly listen to sean hannity and that is really sad… I was way more rude than I care to be but your comments were just plain ridiculous… Based on the constitution your president is a criminal and going in to Iraq was 100% wrong…
Seriously, no hard feelings… I can tell you are a very smart individual with really good grammar skills. I’m guessing on the grammar cause I really wouldn’t know good grammar if it hit me in the face, as you can tell… I’m not going to take any of this personal and I hope you don’t either. You clearly think with reason and I respect that. I’m just completely beside myself when people (not necessarily you) disregard following the constitution or even fail to mention it as we make decisions that impact millions. The neocons don’t have the answer and most politicians don’t have the answers. The liberals don’t have it and the right doesn’t have it… Democrats don’t have it and Republicans don’t have it… I will argue until i’m dead that the answers are in that little document that freed the colonies and gave us our republic. The are dividing us along issues that don’t really concern the federal government. They have us fighting while they destroy our country and our liberty. I would recommend reading any topic at ronpaullibrary.org always and often… I think you are doing a good thing here on the blog and I appreciate you taking the time to think though this stuff. I too am always looking for the truth and I found it first in Christ and then for this world we live in I found it in the constitution. Freedom is relatively new to the world and we will lose it if we don’t get back to the principle taught by the founding fathers…